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Separate leadersboard but just as valid
The real legend is Karl Jobst! 💪🏻💯
People have used TAS runs to find optimal human strategy in the past. I've also seen people beat games blindfolded. That's just memorizing inputs as well and is celebrated. If this game is "easy" enough to be solved like this, so be it. Any rules the community makes up just obfuscates the truth that there is an easier, faster way to beat the game with human hands and some people just think that it's "boring".
No. This isn't cheating, it's just optimization. Anyone who thinks it's cheating is foolish. You wouldn't call someone who attempted the same path as TAS in super Mario Brothers a cheater. As long as the player is actually playing and not have the system play for them, then it's not cheating. And no, don't try to say the system is playing for them cause it isn't
I wonder if the brute force could find a solution that uses like 10 inputs and doesn't have to be frame perfect. You have like a 5 frame window on the first input and based on which frame you hit it will dynamically update the display showing which input you need to hit next.
How is this any different than any other game? As a now middle aged gamer, the games I grew up on are all being speed run through glitches that intentionally alter the way the game loads into NES memory. No one is complaining about that.
2:46 maybe consider stating that the trial is against billy mitchell next time just on the off chance that someone hasn't heard about it cause otherwise it sounds kind of inane kudos <3
Creating a separate leaderboard seems to me to be the best solution, especially if people are going to be doing LIS regardless. If a technique is going to split the community, then let the community split amicably.
Why on earth would people even think about turning a racing game into geometry dash.
Yesterday: I've never heard of Trackmania.
Today: If a computer is telling you how to play a perfect run, the computer is playing it, not you.
we should also ban keyboard while we are at it.
cry about it
LIS is a cool term for it. I attempt to brute force LIS in the Trials series as deep into every track as I can. You can only get so far doing this by hand. With a controller you can use the trigger for precision gas and brakes, but you can also use A/B for binary gas and brakes. You also have a joystick for precision lean or the d-pad for binary lean. Add that with community created tracks featuring the "Hold Forward," theme and you come up with LIS style play fairly easy. The difference is that there is no tool that I'm aware of to brute force for you in Trials and thus I never realized how leaderboard-shattering LIS could be.
The change that needs to happen is in the tracks. The track creators should catch on in no time. You need extended periods of precision so that the "rhythm game," players (the LIS users) would have to feather their inputs so fast and so often that it becomes less feasible than using a controller for precision. I'm not sure what that would look like in a Trackmania track, maybe extra long, deep curves, but I can see it perfectly in a Trials track in many ways. Knowing that LIS fails after so long because the difficulty of the tracks increases to a point where it's basically necessary to use 70% gas and 16% lean instead of 100% gas for 1.3 seconds, let go, tap lean twice, tap gas once more, etc…
I'm seemingly overlooking that a tool assisted attempt to brute force a Trials track could potentially result in some winning outcomes for LIS over precision, but it really doesn't feel like it. Somewhere in that track it is going to require so many inputs that the rhythm game is beyond what rhythm gamers can do, especially when compared with just aiming for 80% gas. I know Trackmania has way more range in inputs than Trials, and I still think this is a possible way to re-introduce precision as the reigning control scheme.
my thoughts are if a human can control the input then it should be aloud. anyone complaining needs to git gud.
2 minutes into the video here… why not just try a different game?? Lol
I think it's the first time I totally disagree with a video on this channel.
First, the map example is terrible, because it require no skills, just pure luck. Literaly Everyone can do it.
As it's sayed, speedrunning is supposed to rewards skills… What skill do you need to get a random bug ? None.
In that sense, a player that can press a button at an exact timing has more skill that someone that try for month until he got lucky, dont you think ?
Did it change everything ? Yes, as the uber-bug.
Is it fun to do ? No, like most speedrun strategy.
Is it possible to control ? No.
I mean, every speedrunner have it's own setup… How can you separate people setup to this technic ? It's impossible… Should we forbid setups ?
In my opinion, getting airborne and skipping parts of the track is already cheating.
isn't the goal of speed running to get the lowest time without the use of tools during the run? if the tool isn't used during the run, it's fine imo
I don't consider LIS to be cheating at all. Every game boils down to "when this happens, press that button" and as far as I see it this is just people have a weird arbitrary bar of "that's only okay if there are more than N of those rules".
However I fully support making it a different category. The whole point of categories is to level the competitive playing field by having everyone agree on what they should and should not do.
No skin in this game, but I feel like people saying "That defeats the purpose because you're not actually playing the game, you're just putting in inputs without even looking at the car, that's not the spirit of speed-running" is akin to people who actually race cars IRL being able to say "Trackmania players aren't even racing real cars, they're just putting in inputs without even holding a steering wheel, that's not the spirit of car racing." Different strokes for different folks.
Wow, that's wild. No speedrun ever has played any game as intended, and now suddenly people notice in a racing game?
Edit: In fact, I think "least inputs" is far less of a cheat than shortcuts that are in every single record. NO ONE is playing any game "right" in speedruns.
External program = cheating
Those who develop those tools and pretend to standardise their use are mediocre players and posers that steal records from true legends
They ruin the fun for everyone and decrease the overall quality of the records
Is this not just a tool assisted run?
I think if Super Mario Bros were released today, someone's Python code would have solved the TAS within weeks and we'd be bitching about the exact same thing as this video, except for the fact that it's still 5 minutes of frame perfectish inputs instead of just six inputs.
People have lost sight of the journey and are too focused on the destination. Ain't Trackmania's job to fix that one…
To be honest, Hefest's run is a really cool and historic moment of Trackmania history, but this really feels like it's just to preserve that rather than anything else. How could anyone call what is effectively performing a consistent strategy by yourself without using any external tools during the race cheating?
I don’t consider it “cheating” but it really is optimizing all the fun out of it. Congratulations, you got a record but ruined what made everyone want to try it in the first place
6:56 this is clearly a human playing, nothing to see hear folks. 😎
AG1 is a scam. Shame you support them. Do your research. Both on the founder and ingredients
Necessity is the mother of invention…This is no different that glitched and glitch-less. Make a category where you don't go off the track like this or using the minimum input. Just like OOT finishing the game in less than a min, it doesn't ruin the normal speed runs, just makes a new category. Which you already went over. Don't need to punish the people who actually run it normally without glitches or tools. Even still, if someone uses the tool, they could just add a few touches to the keyboard to hide their cheating. Technology is a slippery slope.
Solution is to just create a different category. There's already TAS categories in other speedruns.
For honest runs probably you'd have to make them controller only.
I think this is more of a party trick. Cool to see done as a novice otherwise it's just boring
Meh, just establish another leaderboard. That's all this boils down to.
This parallels the general trend of people relying on computers to do their thinking. Executing the button presses isn’t as impressive as determining the button presses, their timing, their duration, etc. The design of the inputs is what’s impressive. Having a computer determine those for the gamer takes away an important aspect of gaming in my opinion. When you hear about groups of gamers figuring out speedrun strats through countless hours of attempts and collaboration I think it’s super impressive. If instead someone says they used a computer to figure it out and then just memorized the input sequence and timing it sort of negates anything impressive. Yes this is cool as a science experiment but what’s the point of competing in this context?